Charity @cherpers

I agree. Don’t lecture. But women you do not surrender to a man who is not worthy. There is nothing there to surrender to, you surrender to God instead. You do not grant him access to you. You withdraw until he becomes worthy. We all know the woman who followed some broken addict off a cliff. Don’t be her. Don’t lecture. But be brave enough to allow there to be distance. To let him fail and step back as he does so. You do not have to go down with him.

She's getting a lot of hate for this, but @TheEcho13 is fundamentally right. "Withholding" in 1 Cor 7 refers to an intentional choice to no longer be sexual in a marriage---in ancient Corinth probably done by living apart like monastics. That nonsense needs to be countered directly and morally: your bodies belong to each other in marriage. But if your wife genuinely has no desire for you, despite consenting to be in a sexual relationship with you, you have a problem to solve. You CAN pressure her into guilt ridden duty sex. But most guys reaching for this underappreciate just what a non-solution it is, for her AND for you. The passionate, free, heart-thumping, creative, animalistic, "I'm desperate to PROVE how into you I am," sex that YOU are longing for lies in the opposite direction of her "lying back and thinking of England." This can be hard for a guy to understand, because if he isn't in the mood (because he's fully engaged in something else), but his wife is really horny, it doesn't take much to context switch and he can be all there. The sex can be great. But if her body isn't at least on the path to arousal, women are just a different animal. Sex is different for women. Sex is a deeply vulnerable full-body "yes,"---her saying on a primal level: "I want to have YOUR baby, I want to go through the pain and danger of childbirth and take on all the risk and work around it, because bringing YOUR seed into the world is worth it all. Take me, take all I have, I am yours." When her body isn't actually saying this to you, and you try to short circuit its voice through rational negotiation, her body-agenda hears you saying, "I am not worthy of your genuine desire, so I need to trick you so that I get you anyway." Rationally, she doesn't think this about you. She's confused and frustrated. But more and more, her sex drive concludes that her own husband isn't the right man. Transactional sex is bad news. It's a shortcut that leads to ruin. Cultivating genuine desire can seem a harder road. But it's what both you and her ultimately want.

Echo 🔆 @TheEcho13

2 days ago

“Withholding sex” is one of the most revealing phrases men use, because it assumes sex was already his and she’s refusing to release it. Watch what usually comes before it. He did the dishes. He paid a bill. He quoted religion. He acted sad. He found a dozen ways to frame her

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@JeepHokie23 @TheEcho13 “I say this as a concession, not a command”

CULTIVATING HER GENUINE BURNING DESIRE I hear it all the time on this platform from frustrated husbands: “What does my wife mean she’s not in the mood for sex? I didn’t want to go to work this morning, but I went anyway! How hard is it just to lay there? It would cost her so little and make a world of difference to me. We all have duties. Grow up!” Seems reasonable, but there’s a problem. He knows exactly where that road ends: with her resigned eyes staring at the ceiling as he pounds away, essentially masturbating with her disengaged body, knowing in his heart of hearts that his wife doesn’t want him inside her. The experience doesn’t give him peace; he doesn’t feel admired, masterful, or exhilarated. It’s the hollow corpse of passion, without even the novelty of porn, and his soul dies a little each time. She hates it, and deep down he hates it too. Even husbands in bad marriages have probably experienced a wife’s genuine desire at least a handful of times. Perhaps they were on a weekend away without the kids, at the very peak of her cycle. Skin touching skin was electric, her body melted to his touch, her hungry mouth searched for his lips. By the time he entered she was practically begging for him. There was ecstasy, thrill, where she desperately wanted him to give her his all. And they collapsed exhausted in each other’s arms with a deep peace washing over them. I have my disagreements with Rollo Tomassi (@RationalMale), but he is dead right that “you can’t negotiate genuine burning desire.” A day as a lion is worth a hundred years as a sheep, and no amount of promises or pressure will turn bad sex into good sex. You can’t negotiate desire, but you can cultivate it. Life is a betting man’s game. You can’t guarantee her enthusiasm any more than a farmer can guarantee a good harvest, but there’s a lifetime of skill and art to playing the odds well. Some men say this is living in her orbit and seeking her affirmation. Nothing could be further from the truth. Whatever a woman’s personal opinions, her unconscious body agenda is almost perfectly calibrated to respond to strong generous masculinity. The path of becoming a man you admire is also the path to maximizing your chances of good sex in your marriage. It’s here where expectations of duty sex will ruin everything. Male neediness kills a woman’s libido. At best it engages her maternal instincts, and women are not sexually attracted to their children. The more she feels you need sex to be ok, the more you will feel like a hungry infant sucking the life out of her, not a strong man sweeping her up in his arms. Sexual self-mastery is the key to sexual abundance in marriage. When you give up the childish idea of fulfilling “sexual needs,” you unlock the sexual power of manhood. Do not approach your wife to fill a lack within yourself, but to give the gift of your passion. With the fear of rejection gone, you’re free to initiate often, playfully, adventurously, unapologetic in your desire. You and your wife will never look back.

@designmom @CricketSurfing You don’t know what natural means. I’d suggest brushing up on ethics a bit before attempting this discussion.

@Good_Rel_2226 @polemoskarios @Alineofmine @Nicki31415Nick Yeah and you’re wrong. Attraction is built in biology not a result of choices and values.

@Good_Rel_2226 @polemoskarios @Alineofmine @Nicki31415Nick Attraction is not a choice. Women are attracted to men who are competent and generous because of their biology. See how many men complain about female hypergamy. It’s built in. You can whine about it or learn to work with it and have a fun and sexy relationship.

@Pat_Stedman Wild that you’ll quote the Bible and then cite adultery as something a spouse would “not allow” instead of God.

@TheEcho13 Or “jumping through hoops.” Like bro where are your standards for yourself! Why is she setting them for you?

@Be0rn0th @Arrigi @FindingHomeland @Hestia_Esq “I say this as a concession not a command”

This is interesting because I used to think this but now I’ve changed my mind. I think our biggest struggle is not being willing to set a boundary and allow there to be distance when our men aren’t loving us well. Many women have clearly communicated and it doesn’t change anything. So I have come to believe that communication is overrated in therapy spaces. Plus giving a man instructions really kills attraction and gets into a mommy son mode. It’s better if he gets curious and asks and is initiating communication about what she wants and needs. Giving him that info when he doesn’t want it feels like begging him to care. It feels degrading and entirely unhelpful for the dynamic. Thoughts?

@Be0rn0th @Arrigi @FindingHomeland @Hestia_Esq Christ gets you into heaven. Duty sex isn’t sacrificial love so it’s a poor example of Christ’s love.

Having sex with one woman is a choice. Being attracted to more than one woman is not. A man can be attracted to someone who is not his wife but still choose to not have sex with her. A woman cannot choose to be attracted to her husband. She’s only attracted to him if he stays attractive. Attraction is not a choice.

@Serenity3000 @polemoskarios @Alineofmine @Nicki31415Nick Female sex drive isn’t static.

@Be0rn0th @Arrigi @FindingHomeland @Hestia_Esq You’re going to natural law yourself right into a sexless marriage or permanent singleness with this attitude.

@lowkeybrowsli @Arrigi @FindingHomeland @Hestia_Esq Yeah obviously sex is a part of a healthy sexual relationship. Like wut. Why are you so emotional about it?

@Be0rn0th @Arrigi @FindingHomeland @Hestia_Esq This right here is why you don’t have a healthy happy long term relationship

@aglassbrightly1 @DananTwit @bacchal65965 @GayBearRes You don’t understand women.

@SilverArrow118 @ErikBecklin @Hestia_Esq Are you entitled to friendship with someone? Do you have a right to demand it from them?

Yeah I agree, working for sex is lame and woman aren’t attracted to that either. She only has leverage over you if you give it to her. If you decide for yourself you want to be sexy and have high standards and become a man you’d admire then she’ll find that irresistible and there wont be any power games. Just lots of flirting and hot sex. If you dont have vision for yourself and still try to earn sex from her, youre in a losing power game against her biology.

@spongeworthy2 @tadstrange4prez @wil_da_beast630 Honestly I don’t personally find it hard to be sexy to my husband every waking hour. I’m hard pressed to think of a time he didn’t find me sexy. But to be fair I think that’s a lot easier for women than for men.